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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>this week&#x27;s meeting · t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/index.html">t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html">this week&#x27;s meeting</a></h3>

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<a name="134687416"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687416" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687416">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm at a w3c meeting and won't be able to lead the meeting this week-- <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> do you want to lead it or postpone?</p>



<a name="134687430"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687430" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687430">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>either way, but I'm not sure how many write-ups we actually <em>have</em>?</p>



<a name="134687440"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687440" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687440">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>I wanted to check back on who was assigned to what</p>



<a name="134687501"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687501" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687501">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe best to postpone so that we have a bit more time for people to process the writeups anyway? (once we have them, that is)</p>



<a name="134687506"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687506" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687506">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, let's do the meeting, but I suspect we won't be able to do much <em>at it</em></p>



<a name="134687512"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687512" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687512">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can lead it</p>



<a name="134687514"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134687514" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134687514">(Sep 26 2018 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>if nothing else it's a time to nag</p>



<a name="134700898"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134700898" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134700898">(Sep 26 2018 at 20:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah i didn't manage to get to mine, so maybe a postponement  + nagging</p>



<a name="134706390"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134706390" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134706390">(Sep 26 2018 at 22:05)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126854">@avadacatavra</span> did you get your writeups done?</p>



<a name="134706434"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134706434" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134706434">(Sep 26 2018 at 22:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>nooooo.....i will be better</p>



<a name="134745652"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/134745652" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#134745652">(Sep 27 2018 at 13:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>lol</p>



<a name="135610220"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135610220" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135610220">(Oct 11 2018 at 14:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>do we have another mtg today?</p>



<a name="135610359"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135610359" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135610359">(Oct 11 2018 at 14:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think so, yes, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126854">@avadacatavra</span> you around?</p>



<a name="135615347"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615347" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615347">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi everyone.</p>



<a name="135615401"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615401" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615401">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi all!</p>



<a name="135615479"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615479" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615479">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll ping <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126854">@avadacatavra</span> on IRC.</p>



<a name="135615628"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615628" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615628">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll try slack ;)</p>



<a name="135615675"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615675" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615675">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>they seem to be offline there though</p>



<a name="135615697"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615697" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615697">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I <em>think</em> that's what that icon means. don't actually know.)</p>



<a name="135615956"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135615956" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135615956">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> said sth. come up and they're late</p>



<a name="135616012"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616012" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616012">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, I can wait. <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> do you have time pressures?</p>



<a name="135616102"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616102" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616102">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>well I have to leave exactly when the meeting ends (1745)</p>



<a name="135616103"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616103" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616103">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>to catch a bus</p>



<a name="135616104"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616104" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616104">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>;)</p>



<a name="135616110"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616110" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616110">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, while we're waiting...</p>



<a name="135616123"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616123" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616123">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Have you read "Rust Distilled: An Expressive Tower of Languages"?</p>



<a name="135616134"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616134" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616134">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>public transport is great but sometimes I wish I had a car so I would have more flexible timing...</p>



<a name="135616136"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616136" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616136">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>no I do not think I have heard of that</p>



<a name="135616147"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616147" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616147">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>There was a talk at the ML workshop co-located with ICFP. <a href="https://aaronweiss.us/" target="_blank" title="https://aaronweiss.us/">https://aaronweiss.us/</a></p>



<a name="135616148"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616148" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616148">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh yes I have it on my to-read list</p>



<a name="135616157"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616157" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616157">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>or sth else by the same author?</p>



<a name="135616160"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616160" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616160">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>what I have is older than ICFP</p>



<a name="135616199"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616199" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616199">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>same thing though</p>



<a name="135616213"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616213" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616213">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>was on arXiv way before ICFP</p>



<a name="135616221"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616221" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616221">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I strongly encouraged Amal and Aaron to take part in the unsafe code guidelines discussions.</p>



<a name="135616268"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616268" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616268">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>and you also strongly encourage me to read their paper? ;)</p>



<a name="135616280"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616280" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616280">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>At some point we'll have to start drafting the invariants for &amp;T and &amp;mut T.</p>



<a name="135616295"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616295" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616295">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> yes, I am doing a lot of strong encouragement :)</p>



<a name="135616348"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616348" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616348">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>^^</p>



<a name="135616351"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616351" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616351">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>well I got it printed now, at least</p>



<a name="135616357"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616357" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616357">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>most of the battle</p>



<a name="135616371"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616371" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616371">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>At some point we'll have to start drafting the invariants for &amp;T and &amp;mut T.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>right... however, we first need to develop the language/logic in which we want to do that</p>



<a name="135616384"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616384" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616384">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>like, I have such an invariant in my RustBelt work. but it's not exactly suited for consumption by non-PL-researchers</p>



<a name="135616388"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616388" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616388">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>Indeed.</p>



<a name="135616404"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616404" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616404">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>Not sure that "first learn CSL" is going to pan out :/</p>



<a name="135616432"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616432" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616432">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>however, I also don't see anything simpler that actually gets the job done</p>



<a name="135616437"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616437" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616437">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>but maybe I should read their paper first? ;)</p>



<a name="135616509"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616509" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616509">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>it also depends on what you mean by "invariants"</p>



<a name="135616515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616515">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>there is Stacked Borrows</p>



<a name="135616523"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616523" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616523">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>which is answering lots of questions around reference types</p>



<a name="135616527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616527">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>The ML paper doesn't have the gory details IIRC</p>



<a name="135616534"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616534" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616534">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>but that's something very different from specifying the <em>semantic invariant</em> of reference types</p>



<a name="135616626"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616626" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616626">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>They're using fractional permissions, plus IIRC run-time capabilities kept as shadow state.</p>



<a name="135616644"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616644" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616644">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>can they handle interior mutability?</p>



<a name="135616658"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616658" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616658">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>that's what killed it for us</p>



<a name="135616664"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616664" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616664">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>Don't know.</p>



<a name="135616764"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616764" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616764">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>Is there a short explaination of why interior mutability is an issue? On the surface it seems like it should be a case where there is a capability that is being kept in "real" (i.e. not shadow) state?</p>



<a name="135616774"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616774" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616774">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>But devil in the details.</p>



<a name="135616790"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616790" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616790">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span>  Could you explain what interior mutability is ?</p>



<a name="135616813"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616813" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616813">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128294">@blitzerr</span> things RefCell.</p>



<a name="135616822"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616822" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616822">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/second-edition/ch15-05-interior-mutability.html" target="_blank" title="https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/second-edition/ch15-05-interior-mutability.html">https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/second-edition/ch15-05-interior-mutability.html</a></p>



<a name="135616831"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616831" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616831">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ahh ! thanks <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128323">@Alan Jeffrey</span></p>



<a name="135616935"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616935" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616935">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128294">@blitzerr</span>  basically, mutating memory where someone holds a shared ref to it</p>



<a name="135616942"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616942" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616942">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>IOW, violating "shared references point to read-only memory"</p>



<a name="135616994"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135616994" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135616994">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am very interested in the unsafe-code. But don't know much about it. So I am just following along and would like to contribute. <span class="emoji emoji-1f642" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="135617007"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617007" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617007">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128323">@Alan Jeffrey</span> well, without interior mutability, <code>&amp;</code> is simply modeled as "read-only", done</p>



<a name="135617016"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617016" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617016">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>fractional permissions can do that (though I'll have to see how they handle lifetimes)</p>



<a name="135617019"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617019" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617019">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hence, the questions <span class="emoji emoji-1f642" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="135617037"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617037" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617037">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>thanks <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span></p>



<a name="135617041"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617041" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617041">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>you're welcome :)</p>



<a name="135617058"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617058" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jake Goulding <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617058">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128294">@blitzerr</span>  also <a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/cell/index.html" target="_blank" title="https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/cell/index.html">https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/cell/index.html</a></p>



<a name="135617061"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617061" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617061">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> One thing that interior mutability means is that capabilities sometimes live in real state, not shadow state,</p>



<a name="135617070"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617070" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617070">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128323">@Alan Jeffrey</span>  but with interior mutability -- really we should call it <em>shared mutability</em> -- the rules for <code>&amp;T</code> are... well, they are whatever <code>T</code> wants them to be</p>



<a name="135617079"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617079" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617079">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>I dont know what you mean by that</p>



<a name="135617086"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617086" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617086">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>but capabilities are always shadow as they dont exist on the real machine</p>



<a name="135617089"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617089" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617089">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>so your proof should reflect that</p>



<a name="135617132"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617132" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617132">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I can imagine this complicates what is otherwise a nice split between capabilities and the stack/heap.</p>



<a name="135617153"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617153" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617153">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>or do you mean "Stacked Borrows"-style "shadow state"?</p>



<a name="135617164"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617164" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617164">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>that would just entirely ignore interior mutability though. you cant statically say in the machine what the rules are as every type defines them for itself.</p>



<a name="135617192"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617192" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617192">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>for Stacked Borrows, <code>&amp;Cell&lt;T&gt;</code> and <code>*mut T</code> are basically the same thing</p>



<a name="135617196"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617196" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617196">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not sure I have a precise thing here, but...</p>



<a name="135617197"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617197" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617197">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>no alias reistrictions either way</p>



<a name="135617215"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617215" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617215">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>it seems like RefCell is essentially keeping a real-state version of a capability.</p>



<a name="135617265"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617265" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617265">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>but how do you explain <code>Cell</code> then?</p>



<a name="135617267"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617267" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617267">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>TBH that looks like a red herring to me</p>



<a name="135617292"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617292" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617292">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I'll first have to figure out which kind of capabilities you mean</p>



<a name="135617298"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617298" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617298">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I may be just misunderstanding entirely</p>



<a name="135617313"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617313" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617313">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> good point, I'd mainly been thinking about RefCell not Cell.</p>



<a name="135617336"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617336" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617336">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>and then there's <code>Rc</code>...</p>



<a name="135617402"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617402" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617402">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> does Rc impact anything other than when drop code is run?</p>



<a name="135617429"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617429" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617429">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>ie in a model that's ignoring reclaiming memory, does Rc have semantic impact?</p>



<a name="135617432"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617432" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617432">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p><code>Rc</code> was extremnely hard to prove correct</p>



<a name="135617434"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617434" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617434">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>in particular, <code>Rc::get_mut</code></p>



<a name="135617442"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617442" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617442">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>because the content of an <code>Rc</code>  isn't always shared</p>



<a name="135617446"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617446" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617446">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>and justifying that you can make it not-shared in <code>get_mut</code> was one of the most tricky things in the entire RustBelt paper</p>



<a name="135617455"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617455" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617455">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> is Rc difficult for different reasons than RefCell?</p>



<a name="135617473"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617473" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617473">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes</p>



<a name="135617498"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617498" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617498">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, maybe</p>



<a name="135617506"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617506" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617506">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>not sure what the equivalence relation on "reasons" is^^</p>



<a name="135617515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617515">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>fair enough, I'm not sure I do either :/</p>



<a name="135617540"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617540" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617540">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>from a mile high view, it looks like a model which can cope with RefCell could probably also cope with Rc.</p>



<a name="135617547"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617547" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617547">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>(at least, ignoring Rc's impact on memory reclamation)</p>



<a name="135617599"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617599" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617599">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>from what I recall we had to change the way we do lifetimes to be able to handle <code>Rc::get_mut</code></p>



<a name="135617609"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617609" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617609">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>but it might have been <code>RefMut::map</code> instead</p>



<a name="135617620"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617620" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617620">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>one of the two required fundamental changes that threw us back a couple months</p>



<a name="135617623"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617623" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617623">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>the other probably benefited from those changes</p>



<a name="135617650"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617650" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617650">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>One thing that's slightly annoying is that Rc and RefCell are doing very similar things (keeping a capability in real state rather than shadow state) but in different ways, sigh.</p>



<a name="135617726"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617726" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617726">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>they are rather fundamentally different in what they do though</p>



<a name="135617734"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617734" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617734">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I wouldnt describe either as keeping a capability in real state^^</p>



<a name="135617741"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617741" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617741">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>rhater, they have elaborate ways of sharing</p>



<a name="135617743"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617743" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617743">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>So each type gets to define its own invariant about the relationship between shadow state and real state.</p>



<a name="135617745"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617745" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617745">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>and ending sharing</p>



<a name="135617758"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617758" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617758">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, got to catch a bus. ttyl!</p>



<a name="135617770"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617770" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617770">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> ok, see you later!</p>



<a name="135617802"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617802" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617802">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hmm, we'll see if <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126854">@avadacatavra</span> or <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> turn up at some point.</p>



<a name="135617872"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617872" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617872">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>Otherwise this week's meeting topic was "Ralf and Alan pass the time talking about memory invariants".</p>



<a name="135617888"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135617888" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> blitzerr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135617888">(Oct 11 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>:D</p>



<a name="135619961"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135619961" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135619961">(Oct 11 2018 at 16:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>hi all =) I'm sorry, as <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> said, something came up</p>



<a name="135620032"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135620032" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135620032">(Oct 11 2018 at 16:32)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> hi</p>



<a name="135620048"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135620048" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135620048">(Oct 11 2018 at 16:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I started a topic with the proper title, for easier finding in the future)</p>



<a name="135625849"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135625849" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135625849">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>i was on a plane</p>



<a name="135625853"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135625853" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135625853">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>sorry about that</p>



<a name="135625864"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135625864" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135625864">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>i'll read backlog and get caught up :)</p>



<a name="135626420"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626420" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nicole Mazzuca <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626420">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd like to guarantee the following:</p>
<p>- Given a raw lvalue field access of type T on an object x, this should not guarantee that the object x is valid under type T<br>
  - it should only guarantee that the field access is inbounds on x<br>
  - Given an lvalue-to-raw-pointer conversion of type T, this does not guarantee that the object the lvalue refers to is valid under type T</p>
<p>basically, this means that raw field accesses are equivalent to an <code>offset</code>.</p>
<p>note: code that explains what the above things mean</p>
<div class="codehilite"><pre><span></span><span class="c1">// raw lvalue field access</span>
<span class="n">given</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">x</span>: <span class="o">*</span><span class="k">const</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">T</span><span class="p">;</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="p">(</span><span class="o">*</span><span class="n">x</span><span class="p">).</span><span class="n">y</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="c1">// lvalue-to-raw-pointer conversion</span>
<span class="n">given</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">x</span>: <span class="nc">immutable</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">lvalue</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">U</span><span class="p">;</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="o">&amp;</span><span class="n">x</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">as</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">*</span><span class="k">const</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">U</span><span class="w"></span>
</pre></div>



<a name="135626596"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626596" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626596">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't really follow the context here — also, who is guaranteeing what? </p>
<p>e.g., "given a raw lvalue field access of type T on an object x" -- you mean given something like <code>x.f</code>? In that case, though, the object <code>x</code> would not have type <code>T</code>.. </p>
<p>...maybe it'd be good to give some Rust example code to get at it more precisely.</p>



<a name="135626725"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626725" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nicole Mazzuca <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626725">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>See #design in the discord for why I want to guarantee this</p>



<a name="135626734"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626734" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nicole Mazzuca <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626734">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>also, the language is guaranteeing that this is not UB, basically</p>



<a name="135626928"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626928" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626928">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>(oh, now I see the code, I didn't see it before)</p>



<a name="135626941"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626941" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626941">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I feel like the example doesn't make sense in isolation</p>



<a name="135626984"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135626984" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135626984">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., it matters a lot what you do with <code>(*x).y</code> -- is that <code>&amp;(*x).y</code>? Is it <code>foo((*x).y)</code>?</p>



<a name="135627045"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135627045" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nicole Mazzuca <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135627045">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>the first would be an lvalue-to-reference conversion, in which case all the rules of lvalue-to-reference conversion hold. The second would be an lvalue-to-rvalue conversion, in which case all the rules of lvalue-to-rvalue conversion hold</p>



<a name="135627909"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135627909" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Aaron Weiss <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135627909">(Oct 11 2018 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="128323">@Alan Jeffrey</span> sorry that I couldn't make it this morning (I had one of those GlobalEntry interview things). You're definitely right to say that the ML workshop extended abstract doesn't have tons of details. But it also predates a very useful meeting that I had with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> that has added a lot of clarity. The stuff present in the talk I gave was definitely informed a lot by that meeting and the subsequent changes I've been working on (and am still working on) to our semantics. That being said, I think you've appropriately captured my thinking (and likely Amal's) on RefCell in your talking with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span>. From my perspective right now, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to add runtime instruments to our operational semantics for Rc and RefCell, but it could certainly surprise me.</p>



<a name="135630267"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135630267" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135630267">(Oct 11 2018 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="127262">@Aaron Weiss</span> hi, glad you're here!</p>



<a name="135630285"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135630285" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135630285">(Oct 11 2018 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ah, that explains the gap between the paper and the talk :)</p>



<a name="135630290"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135630290" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135630290">(Oct 11 2018 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>Are the slides online somewhere?</p>



<a name="135632581"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135632581" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135632581">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am curious to see any other approach to tackling Rc and RefCell :)</p>



<a name="135632589"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135632589" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135632589">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>and yes, I'd be interested in the slides as well</p>



<a name="135634959"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135634959" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Aaron Weiss <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135634959">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>The slides are on my website that you linked, but here's the direct link to the slides: <a href="https://aaronweiss.us/pubs/ml18-slides.pdf" target="_blank" title="https://aaronweiss.us/pubs/ml18-slides.pdf">https://aaronweiss.us/pubs/ml18-slides.pdf</a></p>



<a name="135635166"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635166" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635166">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:47)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="127262">@Aaron Weiss</span> thanks!</p>



<a name="135635225"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635225" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635225">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>they didnt make a recording, did they?</p>



<a name="135635345"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635345" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Aaron Weiss <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635345">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>Fortunately, they did! Leif was there filming it for the workshop, but she's not responsible for the production. So unfortunately, I have no idea how long until they release the videos.</p>



<a name="135635404"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635404" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635404">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>ah cool. well if anyone hears something let's post here (and maybe also in the verification-wg thing on gitter, are you on there?)</p>



<a name="135635455"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635455" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635455">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>ah seems you are. we got three aaron's there^^</p>



<a name="135635507"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635507" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635507">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am actually quite surprised I am still the only Ralf in Rustland (that I know of)... it's a pretty common name around here. There are actually two people sharing my <em>first and last</em> name at my university (well, if you count past members, one of them left before the other joined)^^</p>



<a name="135635613"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635613" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Aaron Weiss <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635613">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for the video since I intend on tweeting about it and sharing it with some friends who weren't there to see it. So, if I find them first, I'll definitely post them here and on the verification-wg.</p>



<a name="135635664"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135635664" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Aaron Weiss <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135635664">(Oct 11 2018 at 20:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>The work is obviously in a much rougher state than RustBelt (otherwise, it'd already be published <span class="emoji emoji-1f609" title="wink">:wink:</span>), but I think has been going a lot better since the aforementioned meeting with Niko.</p>



<a name="135636476"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/135636476" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#135636476">(Oct 11 2018 at 21:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm certainly curious what you'll end up with :) I sure hope there's something simpler than our proofs^^</p>



<a name="147737168"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147737168" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147737168">(Nov 15 2018 at 12:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am finally off the three planes it took to get home. I’m happy to lead a meeting today to make up for the last one :)</p>



<a name="147741541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147741541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147741541">(Nov 15 2018 at 13:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>When is the meeting? I thought it was going to start 40 minutes ago :/</p>



<a name="147741554"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147741554" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147741554">(Nov 15 2018 at 13:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>Isn't it 13:00 UTC ?</p>



<a name="147741949"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147741949" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147741949">(Nov 15 2018 at 13:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>since it moved by 1h with US DST, I'd expect it to be 16:15 UTC</p>



<a name="147741956"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147741956" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147741956">(Nov 15 2018 at 13:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>or maybe 16:00, not sure if we did that move by 15min</p>



<a name="147751927"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147751927" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> avadacatavra <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147751927">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Meeting in 15 :)</p>



<a name="147752065"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752065" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Alan Jeffrey <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752065">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>Captain, sensors are picking up an unexpected meeting.</p>



<a name="147752299"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752299" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752299">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I <a href="#narrow/stream/136281-wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting.202018-11-14" title="#narrow/stream/136281-wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting.202018-11-14">made a Zulip topic</a> but apparently I did my math wrong :)</p>



<a name="147752336"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752336" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752336">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>in that topic, however, there are a few thoughts about agenda etc</p>



<a name="147752337"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752337" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752337">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>also, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132920">@gnzlbg</span>, do you want to be added to the calendar invite?</p>



<a name="147752340"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752340" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752340">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>(if you're not already)</p>



<a name="147752360"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752360" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752360">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:07)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> yes please</p>



<a name="147752369"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752369" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752369">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:07)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Captain, sensors are picking up an unexpected meeting.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>we said last week we'd move to this week because noone was there</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752796" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752796">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I suppose I did not make a new calendar invite :P</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this%20week%27s%20meeting/near/147752797" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/this.20week&#x27;s.20meeting.html#147752797">(Nov 15 2018 at 16:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>for this day</p>



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